I was never a huge Kindercore fan (I only like two of their fourteen bands, and actually hate one or two of the rest of their line-up), but I would never wish anything bad on any indy label (well, maybe Vagrant). Yet after Big Gray & gclark started the discussion, I realized where they went wrong.
It wasn’t mp3’s that killed Kindercore, it was not having them. Consider the evidence:
Has mp3’s, is not bankrupt:
Tooth and Nail Records (just videos, but Christians don’t steal anyway)
The list goes on and on.
No mp3’s, bankrupt:
and so on.
No mp3’s, not bankrupt, neat grafx:
So I think we know what’s going to happen next. Goodbye, sweet Drag City—if only you had changed with the times . . . all joking aside, the labels above have huge sections devoted to mp3’s. They’re in business.
Just like hometaping didn’t kill music (it really didn’t!), mp3’s won’t kill records. Does it change it? Yulp. Good or bad?
I still come down in favor of it. There’s stacks of bands I’m in love with now because of mp3’s—and since radio has long since betrayed me. So we don’t sit around in parlors anymore with the latest Gershwin sheets and sing along—we screw off at work and dl from Polyvinyl. The result is still the same: emotion through music.
On an unrelated note, back to the flag amendment,
Dean might have to “go fuck himself” too:
Joe Conason writes in Salon:
“Several readers distressed by Wesley Clark’s remarks supporting the flag desecration amendment wrote in to declare that they had dropped their support of the retired general in favor of Howard Dean. But others pointed out what I didn’t know about Dean’s own record on this issue. Two years ago, as governor of Vermont, he brokered a legislative resolution that urged Congress to “take whatever legislative action it deems necessary and appropriate to honor and safeguard the United States Flag.” While a bit vague, that sounded much like an endorsement of the Constitutional amendment.
Around that time, Dean rather pompously declared that politicians should declare their positions on the flag issue before voters went to the polls in 2002. That requirement didn’t apply to Dean himself, as he “coyly” told the Rutland Herald, because he wasn’t on the ballot that year. So now that he is running for president, the candidate who prides himself in speaking bluntly should explain the limits of his support for the First Amendment—in plain English. ”
DANGNABBIT!!
this may not be completely a “have mp3 or not” issue. here’s just a few of my thoughts:
the labels with mp3s also have been around a lot longer too, right? they’ve had a strong reputation among the indie circuit before mp3s; whereas, Kindercore is still relatively young, and never had much diversity. Their bands (except Japancakes) were not nearly as strong/good/unique as those on Drag City, Matador, K, Subpop, et al. I’m sure downloading does have an affect, but I don’t think it was the only thing that lead to Kindercore’s demise.
make sense?
here’s an update on the kindercore news:
http://onlineathens.com/stories/111403/roc_20031114059.shtml
haw haw haw! Dean and Clark, sittin in a tree…
writing constitional amenments-I-N-G
um.
haw!
Gorjus, I think your connections are spurious at best. There are a few reasons why Kindercore had trouble and whether or not they have MP3s is hardly justification for a business succeeding or failing. Thrill Jockey? No MP3s and quite successful. And Kindercore had plenty of MP3 stuff out there and didn’t discourage it. Hometaping was different than MP3 trading because it took more time and each copy wasn’t self-replicating in a sense.
I think your Kindercore failed because they didn’t have MP3s is a lot of tripe. People who knew Kindercore knew what their bands sounded like. They just overexpanded in a lot of ways. It had NOTHING to do with whether or not they had MP3s. People just didn’t like a lot of their new bands. And people generally stopped buying records in general that were non-Vagrant. Listen…Sub Pop has been close to bankruptcy for years and are propped up by Elektra. Matador almost went bankrupt last year until Beggars Banquet bought them out. They have NEVER, EVER made money as a label. Fat Wreck Chords is a joke. K Records is a shadow of its former self, and Merge goes up and down. I don’t think that MP3s on their website has much at all to do with whether or not these companies make money. They make money by the quality of their records. And look at Matador’s recent quality decline…look at Kindercore’s overexpansion…these are the things contributing to their demises (or near demises). How you draw a connection between the availability of MP3s on their website and the confluence of business decisions, sociotropic economic conditions, and the state of rock and roll that actually make a business successful is questionable.
Oh…and what the hell were you talking about with the MP3 thing anyway? Kindercore had downloadable tracks all over their website? Did you even look at it?
Wait…was this post intended as a joke? Because every time I look at it, it gets more and more ridiculous. “Consider the evidence”? Hah! Ever heard of a small sample before? Man, you need to go back and take research design!
And, Elise, you made some good arguments about the relatively young life of Kindercore vs. the other big indies, though Vagrant is huge and young (it’s called “Hot Topic” and silent deals with majors).
i think he was trolling with the original post. it really didn’t make any sense.
Hee haw! Yes, it was a joke—in fact, it was simply an easy way to get started on a big links post for record labels I’ve been meaning to do for a while.
You couldn’t tell it was a joke when I listed Kindercore, Worldcom, and Enron together?? Lordy, son!! You been in grad school too long!
However, I take serious issue with two things BG wrote: first, Fat Wreck—while not my cup of tea—is so far from being a joke; in fact, there’s an industry heavyweight (the industry being punk). Their most recent signing, Against Me!, is far outside their normal jokey range, while even Fat Mike himself has come to political consciousness (note newest album “The War on Errorism” and concurrent interviews trying to move away from comedy to reality).
Secondly, “Matador’s recent quality decline”?? Frankly, you’re nuts. Matador hasn’t been this good in years! They’ve got GBV back—in peak form—the New Pornographers, the new Pretty Girls Make Graves (a key steal from Lookout!, where they were out of place, anyway), a little fellow named Stephen Malkmus, cover girl of EVERY magazine last year Chan Marshall, still-playing Yo La Tengo . . . it goes on and on.
Oh yeah, and a little sensation called Interpol. While they don’t sell big, Mark Eitzel, Arab Strap, Mogwai, Soft Boys, Mary Timony, and JSBX are not exactly lightweights, either. I’d risk saying Matador is better and more cohesive now then ever before—and if you doubt that, you must provide years and bands!!
Matador’s (mostly) gotten rid of that horrifying flirt with rap and turntablist junk and moved back to post-rock, where they belong. I say this as a businessperson, not as a music fan: if they can’t make money, no one can.
Matdor active & inactive roster:
http://www.matadorrecords.com/bands/index.html
Sort of related, sort of not: there’s an article about GBV in today’s New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/17/arts/music/17VOIC.html
Okay…here goes about Matador:
At one time they MADE indie rock. I mean, pretty much were one-stop shopping. We’re talking Pavement, Liz Phair, JSBX, GBV, Pizzicato Five, Yo La Tengo, etc.
I’m sorry, but GBV hasn’t put out a decent record in years. “In Peak Form??
” I’d say sloppy seconds. Stephen Malkmus is pretty much a novelty-rock act. Yo La Tengo is sorta slowin’ down, though I still love them. Pretty Girls’ new record was a disappointment to a lot of folks…me, I can take ‘em or leave ‘em. I’m pretty much over all Midwest/West Coast indie rock a la Rainer Maria/Pretty Girls et al. except for Sleater-Kinney and a few others. Anyway, New Pornographers=great. Except no one thought that new one was as good as the last one, just more of the same. Still great, admittedly, but…
And they lost Belle and Sebastian when they mount their big comeback
Cat Power is a big deal and I love her, but she is almost a liability. Surely a tour liability. Mark Eitzel (these days so-so). Arab Strap (still good, but lost some steam). Mogwai (same deal). The Soft Boys was a one-off and Mary Timony is a fucking boring-ass joke.
And Matador isn’t a label anymore anyway in the truest sense. Beggars handles their business decisions and forced them to trim their roster. So, yeah, Beggars Banquet is making money, but Matador is a shadow of its former self.
I don’t consider “key steals” and GBV (in peak form?
Did you hear Universal Truths and Cycles?) the groundbreaking stopping point that Matador was in the early 90s. Sure, they’re still pretty good, better than most, but they just can’t be the same as the days when they had money to burn. Shit, they put out Peter Jefferies records and crap! And Bardo Pond! And Bailter Space! That was a label taking chances.
And I liked Pole and a few other of their turntablist stuff for what it’s worth.
While I wouldn’t say GBV is in peak form—that, for me, is signified by the holy trinity of Bee Thousand, Alien Lanes, and Under the Bushes, Under the Stars—I love Universal Truths and Cycles. Those songs, especially live, are fucking phenomenal.
I thought it was piss-poor through and through, uncatchy, with incredibly flat production, just like…well, every “sell-out” record of GBV’s. Seriously, I thought it was aggressively mediocre in every way. I think he needs to ditch Doug Gillard and Co. and find a bunch of high school kids who can barely play their instruments. And also, someone needs to keep Bob away from Photoshop!
oh come ON, big ray, did you even LISTEN to it?? “back to the lake” and “everywhere with helicopter” could easily fit on any of their peak-period albums (which i think kicker neatly encapsulates above). “father sgt. christmas card” is stuck in my head as we speak.
it may not be the best thing going, but it’s better than yo la tengo! plus earthquake glue is garnering flat-out rave reviews: your very own dusted salivates over the record, while even hateful pitchfork scored it an 8.5, undoubtedly one of their highest scores of the year. give props!!
Right on, gorjus. I saw GBV at the Dublin Pub in Dayton, OH in March 2002. ‘Twas there I first heard many of the songs on UT&C, including one of their best songs ever and one I knew I would love from the glorious title alone: “Christian Animation Torch Carriers.” Yowza!
On related Matador matters, I will concede to Big Gray the decline of Stephen Malkmus (“a novelty-rock act,” Big Gray said), at least if his most recent solo album is any indication. I LOVED —I mean boo-hoo, sing-it-all-the-time, worship-at-the-shrine LOVE —his first solo album, which to me has songwriting on par with Slanted and Enchanted (and don’t even get me started on the otherworldly genius of that album). But Pig Lib just blows—wanky, tuneless, over-lengthy, Spin’s super-rare “A” rating notwithstanding. Hell, the version of Pig Lib I own came with a sneaky 5-song CD of non-album tracks, and those 5 extra songs are light-years better than any of the actual album tracks. What the fuck was/is he thinking?
Haven’t heard Earthquake Glue, but UT&C was just AWFUL. It was unlistenable to me. Such flat production. Three or four great tracks out of 19 does not a good album make. I think that someone really needs to edit Bob Pollard. I liked Do The Collapse better and I HATED that record. I thought Isolation Drills was okay. Another problem with GBV these days: over 3 minute songs…let’s face it: they get fucking repetitive after a while. I like “Glad Girls” as much as the next guy, but motherfucker, it’s just the same thing over and over and over again. UT&C was roundly hated by my peers and most of the music criticism community as far as I could tell. I’ll give Earthquake Glue a chance, but everything since Mag Earwhig (which is half great, some good, and some sucky) has left me colder than a dead fish. And I’m not the only one. As the band has turned into a ferocious, but slightly tedious, live act, their records have just dropped in quality. I mean, how many times can Bob Pollard rip off the Who before it’s not original anymore? Sure, I think he writes great songs still here and there, but I like his solo stuff these days much better. Peak form? Give me a break. The prog rock stuff, hailed as a new direction on UT&C, just bored the shit out of me. Give me Yes or give me death, I say!
Oh, and I didn’t even bother with Pig Lib. I heard three songs and was just turned off. There’s too much good power-pop and mod rock from the 60s and 70s out there to waste my time with SM and his mugging. And this is coming from someone who considers Pavement maybe the best band of the 1990s.
I agree with Big Gray on a few points: (1) GBV albums have, overall, dropped in quality since Under the Bushes…. (although, considering the god-like stature of his output up through UtB, this isn’t really saying much, except maybe that Bob’s human). About half of Mag Earwhig! is priceless; the other half has never appealed to me (and note that they never play anything from that album live). I love about 5-6 songs from Do the Collapse; the rest is unlistenable pap. Isolation Drills, however, is one of the best pieces of music EVER, in my book. It’s just about perfect as combinations of pure melody, head-scratching lyrics, decent sound quality, and kickass guitar playing go, like loud sunshine that never stops. UT&C, again, I love. Earthquake Glue has grown on me somewhat, but about half of it suffers the Mag Earwhig! fate—it’s just not there, to me. (2) Bob’s solo stuff kicks total ass. Speak Kindly of Your Volunteer Fire Department is impossibly good, especially because it works like the best early GBV works: flawless pop songs surrounded by fractured soundscapes that somehow unite the damn thing, sort of the way “(I Wanna Be a) Dumbcharger” and “Auditorium” somehow help make better sense of “Game of Pricks” and “Motor Away.” I’ll probably never understand how the hell he does this. The earlier and later solo albums, while all good to great in their own way, don’t measure up to Speak Kindly… in my mind, though some of the tracks on Mist King Urth are just fantastic. (3) While I enjoy idolizing someone who puts out so much new stuff, I wonder if, as Big Gray asserts, Bob does need an editor, or at least SOME type of filter in that beer-soaked head of his. I’ve always labored under the idea that Bob needs to write 6-700 weak songs a month so that the 3-400 great ones can have their chance to escape. But it’s entirely possible I’m just going easy on him because I’m such a fan. Worth considering, at any rate.
Well, I used to be like you and think everything he did was priceless because some of it was sooo…weird. I’m sure you’ve found that as you get older, it gets harder to become truly weird and original. Bob’s managed to keep it going as long as possible, but his shit just isn’t vibrant or new to me anymore. I’ll never get that newness back (though I love the solo stuff) and that’s fine because I have about 3 million old songs to listen to. But the new stuff? Eh.